Thorough Examinations Podcast Ep 2 Transcript

Simon Gribble: Hi, Simon here from CFTS here at the IMHX show in Birmingham. As some of you may know, we’re here to promote our new CFTS Thorough Examination app. And this of course is the IMHX podcast special.We’ve got Cat with us over the three days. She’s going out to see the mock trial and talk to some of those involved. It’s a complete courtroom scenario as if somebody was really going through the trial itself. Cat’s also going to talk to some of the industry editors and see what the current hot topics are within the industry.

Cat: I’m with Simon Duddy from Logistics Matters. Hello, Simon — great to see you again.

Simon Duddy: Hello, Cat, great to see you again.

Cat: Good to see you too. I’d like to ask you a couple of questions while we’re here at IMHX. Why do you think forklift and workplace safety stories resonate with readers?

Simon Duddy: I think they resonate because they’re necessary. They aren’t always pleasant reading by any means — you quite often get quite graphic details and difficult accident stories — but it is necessary business information. It’s a top priority for any business that’s really switched on and taking its safety culture seriously. You have to be tuned into these stories if you want to keep your people safe and, by extension, keep your buildings and your stock secure as well. For obvious reasons, these stories resonate with companies that are keen to push their safety culture forward.

Cat: What role do you see the media playing in raising awareness of safety standards like CFTS?

Simon Duddy: The media plays a role in sharing information. That’s been really important since the Health and Safety Executive had pretty severe budget constraints around ten years ago. It’s been very important — especially for business media — to step up, share this information, and put emphasis on it. Operations professionals need to know the latest regulations; they need to know best practice on safety standards. I think CFTS plays an absolutely crucial role in raising safety awareness by reminding forklift fleet operators of their responsibilities for the upkeep of equipment — and it’s our role to amplify that.

Cat: You mentioned the HSE budget constraints. Have you noticed more appetite for health and safety coverage in the industry press recently — perhaps as a direct result?

Simon Duddy: It could be. There’s certainly been plenty of appetite. The more tuned-in companies have been gradually waking up to the importance of safety in logistics for many reasons. In part it’s a response to accidents, and in part it’s due to safety campaigns carried out in industry — including UKMHA’s own Forklift Safety Day, which plays a very important role.

Cat: We’re here at IMHX. What do events like IMHX add to the safety conversation beyond regulation and compliance?

Simon Duddy: Events like IMHX allow companies to learn from each other. It’s a great opportunity to learn more about regulations and compliance, but it offers more than that: relevant presentations that help users learn, suppliers on hand who can offer advice, and lots of end users attending who can network and share with each other. It’s a great opportunity to meet people and have conversations.

Cat: In your many years as editor of Logistics Matters, what makes a safety story stand out as newsworthy rather than just compliance?

Simon Duddy: Relatability. When a story deals with an issue that resonates with those operating forklift fleets — when a reader can say, “That could be me” — it grabs their attention and helps spark them into action. That’s the key element for me.

Cat: We’re here today with Peter MacLeod, editor of Logistics Business. Peter, why do you think forklift and workplace safety stories resonate with readers?

Peter MacLeod: Hi, Cat, great to be here. One thing I’d say is that when there’s a forklift and a human being interaction, it never ends well for the human being — that is a fact, sadly.

Peter MacLeod (cont.): We’re here at IMHX, the big materials handling show. I’ve often been told over the years that forklifts will be eliminated from the workplace. It’s not the case. There are forklifts everywhere, operating 24/7, and it’s a very important part of the logistics industry. So forklifts will always be moving around; personnel will always be moving alongside them. I don’t think the safety messages around forklifts and humans will ever go away — nor should they.

Cat: What role do you see the media playing in raising awareness of safety standards such as CFTS’s Thorough Examination?

Peter MacLeod: When I first came into the industry, magazines were read by the decision-makers within the warehouse. Today the age profile is a lot younger — digital natives who probably don’t pick up a B2B trade magazine. So media now means messaging across digital platforms as much as traditional print. We’re bombarded with messaging left, right and centre; the safety message can get lost in the noise. If you stop banging the drum, it will get lost completely.

Cat: We were watching the mock trial earlier, and one of the things the barrister said was that health and safety are using shock tactics on their social media channels now. Have you noticed more appetite for shock tactics in health and safety coverage?

Peter MacLeod: Yes, I have — and it’s quite worrying to see it. That’s the point of it. There’s a lot of noise out there; you need to stick your head above the parapet and be heard. If that’s the way to do it, then so be it. I remember, Cat, when you introduced us to Lisa at the time of the FLTA — she was a forklift truck accident victim. She put across her human story very, very well. It was shocking. We were in tears; she was in tears. But it’s effective. It’s a day I’ll never forget. I can remember the story word for word — and that of her partner and child as well. So yes, shock tactics bloody work.

Cat: Why do you think events like IMHX add to the safety conversation beyond regulation and compliance?

Peter MacLeod: I jump out of my car and it’s got all this inbuilt safety — I don’t even have to worry about switching on my windscreen wipers or turning on the lights; it’s all done for me. People can get the same mindset with forklifts. You expect operators to work in and around where humans are, and sometimes you forget that built-in safety devices aren’t enough on their own. You have to emphasise training, operator safety, and awareness around the operation of these very dangerous pieces of equipment. At a place like IMHX, you can look beyond what’s just bolted onto the OEM truck — it’s a great place to do that.

Cat: I’ve just popped back to the CFTS stand to catch up with the Technical Managers. Hi, Matthew — welcome to IMHX.

Cat: How does Thorough Examination directly help reduce the risk of serious workplace accidents?

Matthew Kennedy: Hi, Cat. It’s designed to prevent workplace accidents by finding the defect before it becomes a serious fault.

Cat: What do you say to businesses that see inspections as a cost rather than an investment?

Matthew Kennedy: The whole point of a Thorough Examination is to ensure the machine is safe to use. A by-product is we can spot defects before they become a serious problem. For example, if the Thorough Examination is carried out and the competent person sees a set of forks at 9% wear and they need to be replaced sooner rather than later, that’s safer than having a fork snap and cause damage to racking — or, God forbid, injury to persons.

Cat: It sounds like it could be life-saving then.

Matthew Kennedy: Absolutely. The competent person carrying out a Thorough Examination has one main role: to ensure unsafe equipment is taken out of service.

Cat: Why is third-party accreditation so important in building trust between providers and their clients?

Matthew Kennedy: Third-party accreditation reassures the end user that the person carrying out the Thorough Examination is following a standard — not their own standard, but one set by another body. That standard includes things like the competent person must be at least time-served five years. It ensures the company in charge of that competent person follows a set procedural code that all member companies follow. It shows they’re doing their Thorough Examination to a standard that isn’t just theirs.

Cat: Can I ask you about the app? I hear CFTS has developed a new app and you’ve been spearheading it. Why develop a new app?

Matthew Kennedy: This came directly from our member companies. They’ve always asked about moving Thorough Examinations from paper to electronic. There’s quite a cost in buying software to do that. Having listened to our members, we decided it made sense for us to provide the app — we’re the experts in Thorough Examinations. We know what the app should do and what our members want to see. We’re writing it on behalf of our members to ensure their Thorough Examinations are carried out to the highest standard.

Cat: How will it help end users day to day?

Matthew Kennedy: The electronic side ensures they don’t lose documentation and ensures compliance — a standard Thorough Examination is carried out. Whether you have provider A or B, if they’re using the CFTS app, they’ll always get the same report.

Cat: You’ve had members testing the app — is that right?

Matthew Kennedy: More than a few. We had six in the first two hours. The overwhelming feedback is it’s brilliant — they love the simplicity. It’s written for engineers to use, which is different to other apps written by outside companies without Thorough Examination experience. We’ve demoed it to six members; most have been using it themselves and saying how simple it is to use and how much they enjoy it. It solves the problem of converting Thorough Examinations from paperwork to electronic. We’re getting the reaction we hoped for and, fingers crossed, when it launches in the coming months we can show our members exactly what we’ve done.

Cat: The million-dollar question: when is the launch date?

Matthew Kennedy: We’re probably looking at the end of October. There’s serious testing in mid-October, but we hope to launch before the end of October.

Cat: Adrian, looking at CFTS — what difference does CFTS make compared to a non-accredited inspection?

Adrian White: As you’re aware, we currently have nearly 800 member depots on our scheme and over 3,000 competent persons. The benefit of being part of our scheme — as an end user or service provider — is true impartiality and independence. We onboard members, ensure they’re competent to do Thorough Examinations, and that they’re trained on the equipment they’ll inspect. A requirement of our scheme is that they use CFTS documentation, which ensures the duty holder is compliant under LOLER as our documentation is fit for purpose under Schedule 1. The inspection is critical, but the documentation is just as critical; if the competent person doesn’t leave the correct documentation, the end user is potentially open to problems.

Cat: Hi, Simon. What do you think awareness of Thorough Examinations in the materials handling industry is at the moment?

Simon Gribble: It’s always been difficult to say. Even now, after all these years — LOLER and PUWER came out in 1998 — people still don’t realise it’s a legal requirement to get a Thorough Examination done every 12 months maximum. It can be six months; it can be four, etc. We’ve had people come up to the stand today saying they didn’t realise it was a legal requirement. That’s crazy — it’s been around for 20-plus years.

Cat: What will help raise that awareness?

Simon Gribble: Shows like IMHX are great — we can talk to members and future members. We’ve got a website that’s easy to navigate. Members can log in and check information on Thorough Examinations; non-members can check the same. There’s media, and we’ve got three WhatsApp channels — agriculture, construction, and materials handling — where we share a weekly topic. There’s always expansion to be made.

Cat: What would you say to someone who hasn’t heard of CFTS and comes to the stand?

Simon Gribble: Funny you ask — a potential new member came earlier and said, “I’m a one-man band; I don’t think I qualify for CFTS.” We deal with the big conglomerates, but our bread and butter are the one-man bands because they won’t have technical support or training departments — they can use us for that. If you’re thinking of becoming a CFTS member, go to the website — simple process, fill in the online application form. That triggers an email to me, Adrian or Matthew; we follow up by phone and email and take you through the application. It’s inexpensive — membership is £55 to cover admin — and we ask for at least one of their engineers to sit on a CFTS Thorough Examination training course.

Cat: We’re off now to go and see the mock trial, hosted by UKMHA. Guiding us through is Marta Tomlinson, a Legal Director from Kennedys who has represented clients brought before the HSE for many years. She’ll help with the legal jargon and explain the process. It’s going to be served by the Right Honourable Stuart Taylor from Mentor, who is acting as the judge. Let’s go and see what happens when a company is brought before the HSE.

Marta Tomlinson (intro): Today, we hope to give you an insight into the judicial implications of failure to ensure warehouse safety. Our fictional case involves Jake Lawson, 18, a Level 2 apprentice supply chain warehouse operative at the Warehouse, who was struck by a forklift truck when taking a shortcut across the facility to reach the rest area. Jake suffered life-changing injuries including concussion, a fractured pelvis, and a shattered ankle. Jake’s employer is being prosecuted for failing to ensure safe systems of work in accordance with Section 2 of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 and Regulation 17 of the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992. I’m going to take you through how a criminal trial might look for a prosecution under the HSWA.

Prosecutor (Mr Welch): My name is Mr Welch. I’m going to be asking you some questions on behalf of the prosecution. Can we first establish some background to this case? How many people does your company employ?

Warehouse Manager: About 80 people.

Prosecutor: And they’re all employed within the warehouse?

Warehouse Manager: There are a few managers, including me, but probably about 15 people per shift working in the warehouse.

Prosecutor: In your role as warehouse manager, you direct the operations at the warehouse — is that correct?

Warehouse Manager: Yes.

Prosecutor: So you will have knowledge of the health and safety systems and procedures that exist at that warehouse?

Warehouse Manager: Yes.

Prosecutor: Can I ask you about safety induction and training? What training do new employees have?

Warehouse Manager: When they first join, they get an induction — so they know our computer system and understand pedestrian/FLT segregation and health and safety compliance.

Prosecutor: Who provides this induction training?

Warehouse Manager: Normally me.

Prosecutor: How often is that refreshed?

Warehouse Manager: It’s at the beginning — we don’t refresh it.

Prosecutor: So there’s no refresher training at all?

Warehouse Manager: No.

Marta (narration): After the evidence has concluded, the prosecution makes a closing speech, gathering all the information from the trial. The defence then does the same, trying to undermine the prosecution’s case and argue the company did everything reasonably practicable. The judge sums up and directs the jury. In health and safety cases, we often have a “route to verdict” — like a questionnaire — to help the jury.

Stuart Taylor (Judge): Members of the jury, my task is to explain our respective responsibilities — mine as a judge and yours as members of the jury.

Marta (verdict): The jury’s verdict is in: guilty on both counts. In reality, the case would be adjourned for sentencing. Lawyers prepare mitigation. Sentencing starts with culpability and harm. On initial analysis: medium culpability; harm category 2 — starting point £600,000 (range £300,000 to £1.5m). Because multiple workers were exposed and actual harm occurred, we go up to harm category 1: starting point £1.3m (range £800,000 to £3.25m). You can see how quickly fines escalate. In addition to the fine, the convicted defendant pays prosecution costs and a victim surcharge. For very large organisations, judges can go higher to make fines proportionate. There’s an expectation fines are paid within 28 days, or submissions must justify a longer period. The aim is a proportionate penalty that hurts but doesn’t put the company out of business.

Cat: Hello, Marta — thank you for that fascinating mock trial. What typically happens when a business is investigated after a serious accident?

Marta Tomlinson: It depends whether it’s fatal or a serious injury. For fatal accidents, the police get involved immediately and can even arrest managers if they suspect gross negligence. For non-fatal incidents, the HSE or local authority take over. The pace varies with the company’s cooperation: evasive employers get a tougher approach; cooperative employers can build a good rapport and manage the process more smoothly.

Cat: How do courtroom settings like mock trials help people understand the real consequences of safety failure?

Marta Tomlinson: They make it real. People see someone like them being cross-examined and think, “That could be me.” It triggers reflection: are employees trained, is equipment safe, is the workplace set up to prevent incidents?

Cat: What’s the single most important step companies can take to stay on the right side of the law?

Marta Tomlinson: Two things: know the law (HSWA and relevant regulations) and know your industry guidance — which signposts HSE guidance and accounts for sector nuances.

Cat: What do you hope employees watching the mock trial take away?

Marta Tomlinson: The shock at how heavy fines can be. It makes people prioritise safety, so they don’t end up facing catastrophic penalties.

Cat: We’re now with Stuart Taylor from Mentor Training, who played the judge. Stuart, what common mistakes do you see with forklift safety?

Stuart Taylor: It’s a long list, but the biggest concern is not enough people understand the requirements. There’s strong guidance from the HSE and UKMHA. Forklift trucks have their own Approved Code of Practice — that tells you the risk level. When accidents happen, the consequences are often catastrophic.

Cat: What advice would you give to prevent accidents like the one in the mock trial?

Stuart Taylor: Understand the requirements and act: proper risk assessments, safe systems of work, and current training. Remember the emotional toll on employees and managers — it doesn’t end in court.

Cat: What can the industry do to raise awareness?

Stuart Taylor: There’s a lot of information out there, but people don’t investigate until it’s too late. We focus on horrific accidents, but many serious injuries are under-reported publicly and can be life-changing. Get interested; understand the risks — you don’t want to be on the receiving end.

Cat: I’m here with David Goss, Technical Director at UKMHA. David, what makes this mock trial different from traditional health and safety talks?

David Goss: We tried to bring to life the human aspects of incidents. We spend a lot of time on what you should do, and a little on what to do when things go wrong, but lessons are hard-learned unless you’ve had the experience. The mock trial brings out the drama and stress — not just for the injured person but everyone around them, including the business.

Cat: Thorough Examination featured in the trial. Where does responsibility lie for getting that message to end users?

David Goss: It’s the end user’s responsibility to ensure equipment is safe and that the competent person checking it is actually competent. That can be challenging unless you use something like CFTS to ensure competence — but fundamentally, the responsibility sits with the employer. The trial underlines that.

Cat: What trends are you seeing at IMHX this year?

David Goss: More focus on automation. There’s still a role for traditional warehouse and counterbalance trucks — it’s about picking the right solution for the application.

Cat: Do automated trucks still require the same Thorough Examination?

David Goss: Absolutely. The legislation predates automation, but if it’s lifting equipment, it needs Thorough Examination — normally at least annually, possibly more often depending on use. Automation isn’t a reason to skip it.

Cat: Will automated and traditional systems coexist smoothly?

David Goss: That’s the big challenge. Fully automatic systems are one thing; systems with people are another. Mixing the two is hard — partly for safety, mostly for efficiency. The speeds and behaviour differ. Making them work together is the immediate challenge.

Cat: Do you see anyone doing that well right now?

David Goss: We’re starting to see it. Sensor tech and software that helps trucks understand their surroundings is developing fast. Early adopters are driving productivity gains while maintaining safety.

Cat: Looking ahead to IMHX 2027, how different will it be?

David Goss: One advantage of the IMHX cycle is you see big changes between events. I’m looking forward to seeing what’s available in a couple of years.

Cat: Thank you very much for your time today.

Simon Gribble (outro): Great to see you all at the Archies — and congratulations in particular to the CFTS winner of the Customer Service Excellence Award. We’re now closing the show. This is the end of the IMHX from CFTS. It’s been a fantastic time; it was great to meet all of you, and hopefully we’ll see you in two years’ time.